Derek Lomas in conversation with M.P. Ranjan
An interview from The Design Lab, University of California, San Diego, USA
Derek Lomas, is an assistant professor of Positive AI at TU Delft, working on bridging Human-Centered Design and Artificial Intelligence. He happened to interview Prof. M.P. Ranjan on Aug 7, 2015 - Just 2 days before his untimely death on 9 August 2015. The original interview with photos and references can be found here.
I run my own podcast called Audiogyan, where I interview people from the field of design and performing arts. I understand the significance of documentation and would urge all readers to read the entire interview.
Disclaimer
For this article, I have taken some liberty of picking select questions which I found to be extremely relevant for the current time and definitely for the future of design talent in India. I have also been a bit adventurous by adding my own comments to contextualize and make certain parts relatable to you. Excuse the Design fraternity and Derek for some misinterpretations.
A quick introduction to Prof. M.P. Ranjan
Born in Madras in 1950, M.P. Ranjan joined the NID in 1969 and became a member of its faculty in 1972. He ran the consulting arm of the NID from 1981–1991. During that time he facilitated over 400 collaborative projects between NID faculty and their corporate and government clients. From 1991–1995, he was chair of publications, where he set up a prolific set of design publications. Ranjan was also a prolific writer, publishing in formal publications and via more informal platforms. His two best-known books are Handmade in India: A Geographic Encyclopedia of India Handicrafts and his book analyzing the cultural and material potential of Bamboo - Crafts of India: Handmade in India. He had just begun to teach a new university-wide course on Design Thinking at Ahmedabad University when he left us untimely. Ranjan’s expansive syllabus reflects his deep knowledge of the field of design and his ability to communicate it to students.
Interview
Derek: How do you see the difference between engineering and design?
M.P. Ranjan: Engineering, in my view, represents the technical competence of both the product and the offering. In design, the intention is not only to make the product better but in some cases, to replace the product altogether. The offering may not be a technical solution, it may be a social solution. If the solutions lie outside the engineering realm, engineers will never attempt them. I’m not claiming that designers are doing this, but that is what design is supposed to do. To be able to assess what needs to be brought to bear on the problem and to realize it.
But even designers don’t have the bandwidth to move way outside their own field of expertise to bring in expertise that may be needed to solve some categories of problems. But it is beginning to dawn on us that this capacity is becoming more and more important.
The early goal-setting stages become very critical. Once a goal has been established, we know how to get the hammer and tongs and try to resolve it. But what if the goal is wrong? One goal might be to build a bullet train from Bombay to Ahmedabad. Another is to say that we need improved mobility between these cities, or for the population. So the problem can be defined in a variety of alternate ways. And in alternate definitions, the answer may not involve a train at all!
So, who does this early stage of reckoning? That, I believe, is the domain of design. It is still unacknowledged in our country and in many other places.
My take: “Mobility between the cities” is a remarkable demonstration of 'first principle thinking,' a valuable approach for designers when faced with any problem. I strongly recommend employing the '5 whys' technique. These conversations can be challenging and often induce anxiety, as many struggle to grasp the underlying reasons. However, it is in this pursuit that the true essence lies. Allow me to provide an example: a product manager requests a larger AC remote. But before hastily sketching and prototyping a bigger remote, we must first identify the problem rather than focusing solely on the solution. Through discussions and research, we discover that people frequently misplace their AC remotes—finding them under the bed, behind pillows, or, in my case, as a temporary toy for my dog, Mango.
By promptly jumping into the design and production of a larger remote, we reduce the function of the design to mere execution, neglecting the aspect of problem-solving. To address this issue, several potential solutions can be explored. For instance, eliminating the need for a physical remote altogether and utilizing sensors instead. Another option is connecting the AC system to a mobile device, assuming one's pet is trained not to eat mobile. Alternatively, a small wall-mounted holder for the remote could be considered. By exploring multiple options before committing to execution, we can truly tackle the problem at hand.
We as designers need to build a muscle of “first principle thinking”.
Derek: Would you say that design is a collection of independent fields or an integrated field of study?
M.P. Ranjan: Design, in my view, is a set of related abilities and attitudes that need to be developed. For instance, one attitude is when scientists ask for rigor. On the other hand, when you want to explore, you want to play. That is also an attitude. At an early stage, when you don’t know where to go, I think play is very good. Now, the play seems like a very frivolous way of addressing a very serious problem; but from my experience, many serious problems need playful ways of finding answers. Otherwise, we can remain serious but not get anywhere, because we are still looking within familiar, limited frames. So, changing the frame of reference is a big challenge today. And, I’m not sure which discipline today is able to suggest alternate frames, other than design. Or, what you might call integrated design.
There are different terms being used today. If you go to Carnegie Mellon, they talk of Transitional Design. They are putting together new courses online; if you haven’t seen those, I strongly recommend them ... quite a good line of thinking.
My take: "Play" is such an important concept in any creative field. Creatively solving problems is an outcome of play. Paula Scher in her famous TED talk, "Great design is serious, not solemn" talks a lot about play. Over-indexing on data, user research makes the design very mecahnical and standardised. You can see the kind of films Netflix is producing, all of them have the same template (especially the documentaries). Play brings in a human connect and possibilities of organically moving towards a better solution.
Derek: Do you think that “design” has potential as an integrated field, or do you think it really makes more sense for design to be treated as a collection of different fields?
M.P. Ranjan: Design skills are important when you are designing. But when you want to talk about design with other people, domain skills are not so important. You need to be convincing, and able to negotiate and build and talk and share and partner with people. So you don’t need to draw specifically from domain knowledge, because it exists outside the collaborative field. But you need the ability to connect to that domain knowledge. Do you understand?
If attitudes of co-creation, collaborative working, and team-building are embedded into a person or a small group of people, then chances are that they will be able to mobilize and bring in the required disciplines from outside.
Another essential skill is the capacity to determine that something is even needed. I am talking about truly transformational work where there is no reference point available for you to say, “Should we do this or not?” when getting close to a breakthrough, for instance.
My take: I deeply resonate with this notion, which was reinforced in my conversations with Itu Chaudhuri and Lisa Rath, and with Sujata Keshavan. Sometimes, the role of a designer is not solely about designing; it's about being a problem solver, much like a plumber. The key is to identify gaps and creatively, or even smartly, address them.
This principle holds true not only in the realm of service design but also for product designers embedded within organizations. To offer effective solutions, you must adopt a broad perspective that encompasses different business units. For instance, during my time at Jupiter, creating elaborate packaging for debit cards was a significant move. However, when the volume of debit cards to be dispatched increased fourfold, we had to make compromises to ensure delivery within two days instead of ten. This insight was gained through firsthand visits to the debit card departments in Chennai and Mumbai, where I grasped the intricacies of operations and logistics. As the saying goes, "It's better to be a fighter working in a garden than a gardener working in an army." Along similar lines, it's more advantageous to be a problem solver tailored to specific situations than simply a designer in a large organization.
Derek: Are these attitudes common across different fields of design?
M.P. Ranjan: What I am trying to say is that the attitude towards these issues, one facet of which is dealing with other people who have expertise, is critical. So, the question is, how does one embed this kind of capability, quality, or sensibility in a person? Any design program in the future needs to do that.
This means that one of the most important things programs would want to teach (if this can be taught at all), is the importance of building an ethical standard within the person or group going forward. What I mean by an ‘ethical standard’ is the ability to honor the other—which is necessary to get that connection. Also, one needs to believe that the other person also knows something and that there are alternate ways of doing the same thing. One needs to be open enough to look and share. This is not like saying, “I know the answer, and I am going to solve it.” Sometimes, you truly do not know. In brainstorming we defer judgment for a short time; but in design decision-making, are we able to do this? That is where some design attitudes become very critical.
My take: “To lead, you must first serve”. I guess this sums it all.
Frequently, I encounter designers who express discontentment about their exclusion from important discussions or not having a seat at the table. Hear me out: prioritize the resolution of essential business challenges. As Julie Zhuo says, “The quickest way to a PM’s heart is to be reliable”. Establish yourself as a reliable problem solver who tackles critical issues within the organization. Such an approach contributes to the development of designers' credibility. Engage actively, comprehend the overall context, and subsequently defend your design choices while upholding the company's values and product principles.
By undertaking these incremental measures, you can equip yourself for success in addressing more significant ethical and moral predicaments stemming from unintended design consequences.
Derek: Patents can be seen as a form of publication. So what is the situation of design publications in India?
M.P. Ranjan: Publications! The situation in one simple word is ... pathetic. Pathetic. There is no better word for it. I’ve written a lot on design publications in India. Look at the latest issue of Pool,8 published last month: I wrote the forward on design publishing in India over the past 40 years and how it stands now. I have not used that word in that article, but I can tell you for the record that the status is pathetic. It can only get better when challenges are set, and when there are platforms that encourage both design schools and design practitioners to write more, share more, debate more, and basically put themselves out there so that third parties can have their say.
Ground-level primary documentation is missing. The secondary level of reflecting on that documentation is missing. The tertiary level of philosophizing and building theory on the first two levels is missing. While there are thousands of design experiences, relatively few people have been through all the many kinds of experience. Design is happening — but there is very little published material that reflects on or shares the experience of design. Only very commercial types of design in corporate India are typically visible. Yet, there is a whole lot of design work happening in the non-corporate space, in the government space, in the non-government space, in the rural sector, and others. It is happening, but it is flying under the radar.
My take: In my observation, the challenge of effective documentation appears to be deeply rooted in India, particularly due to our traditional reliance on oral knowledge transmission.
While I commend the proliferation of numerous design podcasts, YouTube channels, and newsletters, I believe it is essential to gradually shift the focus of their content. Instead of primarily addressing topics like "Using Figma and After Effects for animation" or "Negotiating salary while maintaining work-life balance," it would be valuable to explore subjects such as "Ethics in digital design" or "Areas of society in need of design intervention." I am of the opinion that this kind of discourse is not only necessary but also warrants publication if we aspire to build upon the wisdom of influential figures like M.P. Ranjan, whose contributions have shaped our field.
Derek: What do you see as the purpose of design publications?
M.P. Ranjan: There are many levels. They will build awareness and interest in design as a profession, and help design to connect with related disciplines. They will also help change funding patterns, by changing the mindsets in government and business administration vis-à-vis design-related research. Design research is almost non-existent today. Some of us have been working in the field of design research for a fraction of the pay seen in fields of pure scientific research, both in terms of personal remuneration and in terms of facilities we have at our disposal.
At present, there is no platform for recognition. I say that because the Indian government does offer a number of national awards to filmmakers, scientists, artists, and people who contribute to social and economic initiatives, but not a single person in the country has been recognized for anything related to design. How is this possible, when I can list 10,000 things that can and have been done by design? This situation does not bode well for the future. If the opposite were true, we could put into place a better educational system, and attract talent into those institutions and so on. It would have a cascade effect. Both recognition and publication would change that.
Out of the thousands of people who have been trained in design, there are only 10–15 people who have contributed to design publications in this country over the past 50 years. This number has to change; it may change through the new Ph.D. programs. But the problem with these new programs is that they are following the science pattern once again. There is a lot of confusion because a lot of people talk about “design is science” or “design is art”—this needs to be debated. We need to get people to understand that design is not science, nor is it art.
So there is a huge scope for a university program in design that can actually change this situation. If ordinary university programs in design do not create designers, they should at least create design critics. People who are articulating and expounding about design—and raising issues and arguing, to shed light on how the field of design could move forward.
How can we reflect on the issues we face today? For instance, who will take up the case of the bullet train and say whether it is the right thing for India or not? What else could the possibility entail? We leave it to a politician to design a dream, but that dream is only a wish, there are no details in it. When the multinational groups are consulted, they say “Look at Germany: do the same in India.” Is that going to work? Can you imagine the self-driving Google car in Ahmedabad? I’m not challenging India’s ability to do it, but look at our chaotic traffic conditions: there is a long way to go. So, is X the way forward, or is there another way? When considering advanced technology, intermediate technology, and appropriate technologies (these terms have all been used since the 70s, 80s, and 90s) where should we go? How should we grow forward? We also need to understand the ethical parameters; we also need to change a whole host of laws and attitudes in society.
My take: To realize M.P. Ranjan's visionary goals, I believe we must be prepared to make significant sacrifices. While it is important to cultivate design stars, we must personally take a step back. Engage in discussions, actively participate, and, most importantly, take action. Our focus should be on delivering exceptional products and experiences. Share your work through thoughtful blogging, accompanied by your philosophical insights that complement your creations. It is crucial to showcase your work with unwavering determination. Mere presentations alone will not suffice. Embrace breadth and depth in your endeavors. Venture into uncharted territories and apply your design thinking. Complete your projects and go beyond, contributing further to your field.
During my talk at the Ahmedabad Design Week in March 2022, I noticed a significant number of students aspiring to enter the UI and UX domains. The distinguished guest at ADW was General M. M. Naravane, the Chief of Army Staff of the Indian Army. He posed an intriguing question, "Why not design insulated pipes capable of transporting drinking water to the mountaintop of Siachen before it turns into ice?" The army, across all sectors, requires substantial design intervention to save lives. This kind of design support is essential throughout India.
Derek: Do you have any further advice for me?
M.P. Ranjan: Your map of design is a worthwhile task. To this end, there are many design summits on record, so you can find out the topics, and learn about the speakers and what they do. You might also consult the journalists who have been covering design. For instance, the Economic Times ran the Design Summit this year in Bombay. Similarly, Mint is a Bombay journal that has been writing about design. Finally, there have been some large individual promoters— large families and industrialists—who have started investing in design because their family members were trained in design. Many of the younger generations see design as a way forward, and I think this is going to change business in our country. At Godrej [a large industrial house] for instance, each of the owner's family members has a foot in design. One went to IIT Chicago and then came back to build design at Godrej, focusing on developing new products for the bottom of the pyramid market. They have been bringing in IITC professors as their consultants. Godrej is a multi-vertical company, so they can go anywhere on the planet and get people, but I’m not aware of any design school in India that is connecting with them. Similarly, in the Fisher group [a large retail chain], the younger generation is all connected to design. So that is good news for design in the country. But it happens because there are pressures from the outside pushing these companies into design. An example is the new design thinking platform for Infosys, which has announced that they have trained 70,000 engineers in design thinking. Indian industry is under tremendous pressure to put design into their products because global competition is heating up.
My take: Delve into M.P. Ranjan's illuminating blog post on Design for India, exploring the specific areas where he identifies the need for design intervention—an extensive range of approximately 230 sectors. Immerse yourself in studying his insightful frameworks. Within these vast possibilities lies an abundance of opportunities to employ creative problem-solving through the lens of design.
“Design is a very old human capability that has been forgotten by the mainstream educational systems and the traditionalists alike. Both these streams need to reestablish contact with the discipline if we are to face the vagaries of change that is upon us from all directions.” - M.P. Ranjan
In closing, I express my sincere gratitude to the late M.P. Ranjan for diligently documenting his profound insights throughout his journey. I also extend my appreciation to Derek Lomas for facilitating this interview, allowing it to be accessible to a wide audience. My hope is that these contributions will be of great assistance to designers in their endeavors.